The Linux Thread

[earlofqb]

Ahh, Linux, the brainchild of Linux Torvalds, a Finnish guy who keeps getting bitten by penguins while on vacation (lol).

Anyway, this here is the general-purpose Linux thread. Feel free to post what you like/dislike about Linux, Linus, penguins, and Open-source software as it pertains to Linux.

Remember, Tux is coming for you, Mr. Gates...

[earlofqb]

What I like about Linux:

It's free (beer & money)
stable (Though not as much as some claim. Sure, it only crashed on me 3 times so far , but it wasn't "supposed to" at all)
fast (very fast)

Dislike:

All software for it must be downloaded (very few hard-copy retailers of Linux software exist. My ultimate ideal is to walk in and buy Linux software like I would Windows: at WallyWorld (Wal-Mart), Circuit City, Staples, Best Buy, Compuserve, etc)
The fan-club (who claim that whatever the Linux flavor of the month is, it is the best Linux ever and will destroy Windows entirely)
Free (money) support is not readily available (at least not without messing with the fan-club)
Isn't "optimized enough" for desktop apps (runs the few cross-platform games I have very poorly)
Have to learn a scripting shell to efficiently use it.
In order to even use it, you have to know a good bit about what your computer is capable of, what the different distros can do, and the differences between various modules/packages (although Anaconda - the GUI-based install driver for RHEL/Fedora - comes close to helping you with install, you still need to know the information about the different packages to choose the right one; or risk a somewhat complicated setup routine to get the built-in packages off disk. Even still, there are often better packages not included on disk that most users wouldn't know about).
The "elitism" surrounding the development community (certain key people can "do no wrong", there is no real organization, only key people can submit a proposal for further testing, etc).
Monolithic kernal (not a good idea in general, as anyone who's gone through a CS program can tell you that modularity is better than a monolithic program. In this case, drivers can't be updated without updating the kernal (AFAIK), and the kernal becomes bloated as a result).

Penguins: Cows, dogs, and sometimes dogcows are better. Still, better than the Orb of Death.

OSS - Good stuff. Too bad it's pirated so easily, that profit can only be made in support (which I consider far more unethical than selling software. I consider it equal to kicking someone when they're down). Therefore, I don't expect to contribute to it for much longer (especially since everyone keeps ignoring my suggestions! Bloody elitism!), definately not after I get a nice job where the reason I'm not listened to is because my boss has years of experience in development and programming (I once worked on an OSS project where the lead developer barely knew C++, and the project clearly reflected that).

Finally, despite all that I gripe about it: Linux is better than Windows and OS X, because it's free, and because if I have the time, I can manage to figure out most of my problems (just need broadband to actually fix it). Further, OSS is a generally good idea, and my personal gripes come from a few (profound) bad experiments (hilariously enough, I think all the projects I contributed to collapsed by now). Last: if global warming continues, I'm sure that Tux the Penguin will be the only "living" penguin around. Makes me wonder why more Linux folks aren't hopping on the Green Bandwagon (probably just a North American fad).

[Mikrondel]

earlofqb said:

What I like about Linux:
All software for it must be downloaded (very few hard-copy retailers of Linux software exist. My ultimate ideal is to walk in and buy Linux software like I would Windows: at WallyWorld (Wal-Mart), Circuit City, Staples, Best Buy, Compuserve, etc)

That sort of thing is already starting to become popular in some places. (Asian countries have been selling computers with Linux preinstalled for years; and I'm seeing more and more live CD giveaways like Ubuntu)

earlofqb said:

The fan-club (who claim that whatever the Linux flavor of the month is, it is the best Linux ever and will destroy Windows entirely)

I would agree with that one. I (think that I) see Linux for what it is. Not perfect, not superior in every way, but still with much merit.

earlofqb said:

Have to learn a scripting shell to efficiently use it.

Barely anymore. Maybe if you want to do powerful stuff; but to watch videos, do word processing and spreadsheets, instant messaging, web browsing, and image editing, on many recent distros you don't even need to know where the terminal is.

With a new Ubuntu, when you visit a website with a Flash movie for the first time, it gives you a popup asking whether you want to install the Flash plugin package. You agree and it's done. (It used to be MUCH trickier, and remember this is a proprietary thing that can't really be legally shipped with Ubuntu.)

earlofqb said:

Monolithic kernal (not a good idea in general, as anyone who's gone through a CS program can tell you that modularity is better than a monolithic program.

Sorry, what?

Firstly - it's kernel. Secondly, monolithic doesn't refer to the programming methodology but rather the organisation of protection levels and addressing within the kernel. A monolithic kernel can be modular.

Monolithic kernels tend to be more difficult to program (largely because a bug in a monolithic kernel does a lot more damage than in other types - but ideally you want zero bugs in any kind of kernel) but they are inherently faster than other types of kernel.

Mega-optimised microkernels might be competitive but their efficiency is much more limited than that of a monolithic kernel. And the difficulty of such mega-optimisation counteracts the programming advantages that microkernels give.

The whole X server thing is microkernel-esque which is part of the reason graphics can be sluggish on Linux.

earlofqb said:

In this case, drivers can't be updated without updating the kernal (AFAIK), and the kernal becomes bloated as a result).

Most monolithic kernels (Linux is definitely one of them) allow loading of modules at runtime. You can also compile the modules right into the kernel (which improves performance - if they're modules you actually use, otherwise it causes bloat).

earlofqb said:

OSS - Good stuff. Too bad it's pirated so easily, that profit can only be made in support (which I consider far more unethical than selling software. I consider it equal to kicking someone when they're down).

Since when was OSS about money? In my book it's about doing something for the good of society.

earlofqb said:

Therefore, I don't expect to contribute to it for much longer (especially since everyone keeps ignoring my suggestions! Bloody elitism!)

No offence, but based on what I know of you, I'm not dismissing the possibility of the 'ignoring' being justified. (I'm not saying it was justified, and I've had such experiences myself. I learned that it isn't about explaining the advantages of your idea logically, but simply about getting your logic across to the other person(s).)

[earlofqb]

Well, first of all, thanks for the suggestion that I can't express myself properly. I don't know what I'd do if my day didn't start with that...

Anyway, I wasn't even suggesting "major" or even "minor" changes. I was suggesting some extremely simple optimizations, such as initializing variables outside loops and resetting them every loop (better than the overhead of creating and destroying variables), simplifying functions to perform only one task, etc.

Beyond that, I'll admit my knowledge of Linux is extremely limited. So limited, that I cannot compile something under Linux, general stuff central to me (as a power user/programmer) that goes beyond "non-powerful stuff" like Internet browsing, word processing, etc. Sorry my implication was as misguided as it was. As you know, I've no clue how it works, and simply represent the uneducated masses in this topic.

Now, about that OSS profiteering business:
Basically, I consider OSS a Very Good Thing, something worth doing. I'm in full support of it, however have found that it limits my own ability to make a living out of something I enjoy. This isn't to say I'm a greedy idiot looking only to pad my wallet, only to say that I'd like to one day move beyond my life of flipping burgers all day and programming after dark, into one where I create something professional and can afford more than a bowl of noodles for lunch (Every Single Day!).

I never said I endorsed closed-source programs, merely that I'd like to be paid something for the countless hours I've put into something. It's an honest request, as I don't know of a single other profession where someone does all this work, only to later "donate it" (where the software wasn't meant to be freely available in the first place) and end up putting themselves out on the street. (This is reminding me of Bill Gates' letter, a very sad fact, and proof that I should stop talking now.)

Lastly, it seems that OSS doesn't always grant you a "code sample" or prove you can program (degrees and certifications only go so far), as I've known a few people I've gone to school with not get a job because their code samples contained OSS. I guess the mentality is that anyone could've written it (likewise, no serious college will accept a Wikipedia entry as a source in an essay).

Now, finally, I'd like to ask you, before you judge me further, to think about educating someone. Sure, I probably don't have the time to read pages about computing (working 2 (and soon 3, the way things are going) jobs, as well as attending college, certainly doesn't afford you the luxaries of intensive studies independent of your central studies), but it certainly would be nice if you could start up your programming wiki again (it was interesting, albeit the connection slow (even on dialup I felt the slowness of it), no offense).

[Mikrondel]

earlofqb said:

Well, first of all, thanks for the suggestion that I can't express myself properly. I don't know what I'd do if my day didn't start with that...

Sorry, my bad. You should have said the lead developer was a complete idiot rather than the lead developer barely knew C++. (Even if (s)he wasn't - someone who refuses to accept the obvious truth doesn't deserve the truth )

earlofqb said:

Beyond that, I'll admit my knowledge of Linux is extremely limited. So limited, that I cannot compile something under Linux, general stuff central to me (as a power user/programmer) that goes beyond "non-powerful stuff" like Internet browsing, word processing, etc. Sorry my implication was as misguided as it was. As you know, I've no clue how it works, and simply represent the uneducated masses in this topic.

Uneducated? I consider teaching oneself to classify as education. And I'm fairly sure a lot of the stuff you do know wasn't learned in a classroom. Whether or not that is the case, what you already know about Linux is a good achievement in my mind. I know I tear your comments apart all the time, but remember that just because someone is better than you doesn't mean nobody appreciates you.

earlofqb said:

Now, about that OSS profiteering business:
Basically, I consider OSS a Very Good Thing, something worth doing. I'm in full support of it, however have found that it limits my own ability to make a living out of something I enjoy. This isn't to say I'm a greedy idiot looking only to pad my wallet, only to say that I'd like to one day move beyond my life of flipping burgers all day and programming after dark, into one where I create something professional and can afford more than a bowl of noodles for lunch (Every Single Day!).

We all know about this issue. But don't be too reluctant to get into "support", or other related things. The problem with support is its transience - DOS can still boot on most new PCs, and some of the Linux code has barely changed since 1998, but support helps someone and that's it. Yes, if it's saved in a searchable system it can still be valuable to more than one person, but people need one-on-one support all the time. Basically I'm saying OSS is a much longer lasting investment than support, and so it follows that there is much more free software than free support.

And I disagree that charging for support is like kicking someone when they're down. It's more like helping them up and having them shout you a beer. Firstly, is the deal any better for non-free software? Not usually, I'd say. Secondly, if you're a business, there's no problem paying for support (or, for that matter, hiring an expert or a consultant). Startup businesses are great (in fact I'm one of the partners of one) because they care more about your commitment and how you can help than whether you have a degree. Consider forming one yourself - essentially the idea is to invest time (rather than money) into the business, and then own a portion of it and share in its profits. Just make a product that has some advantage over others, for instance low cost or quick setup (my business is going for extreme ease of use) and with luck you'll be able to eat bacon and eggs for lunch twice a week. (With a lot more luck and work you'll be the next Google or YouTube.) Dreamhost seems to have gone for low cost and while their service could be better, the price is great and it's well suited to small businesses.

earlofqb said:

Now, finally, I'd like to ask you, before you judge me further, to think about educating someone.

I've more than thought about it. I tutored a friend from university in C programming last semester. Also I provide a few students from my old high school with an hour of support in mathematics once a week.

Though you likely don't have time for instant messaging, it's a decent medium for programming/computing tuition. Free of charge, of course, though only when I can spare the time (which turns out to be fairly often, although time differences can be an inconvenience). You can send me a PM about it if you wish (as can anyone else reading this). If you haven't enough time, that's fine, though you may not need much for this.

earlofqb said:

but it certainly would be nice if you could start up your programming wiki again (it was interesting, albeit the connection slow (even on dialup I felt the slowness of it), no offense).

Yeah, my server's a bit slow and PHP isn't its first language
I really ought to continue that wiki and I think I might do so fairly soon. Thanks for the feedback! I've barely had any at all.

[earlofqb]

Yes, you are correct, 90% of what I've learned about Linux has been self-taught, mostly because my Linux class is a complete joke. We spent 3 weeks just installing the thing and learning how to use the man pages (not exactly rocket science, especially when all we went over was how to use the Anaconda GUI to install). It is now week 8, and there are only 4 more left (obviously, the class isn't an "important" one for my career. As though I'll never have to program a Linux server in my lifetime...). Of course, using Fedora 5 isn't helping me (although 7 has stability issues, it's supposedly far better than 5 or 6. I wouldn't know myself, as my entire hard drive was pre-partitioned with NTFS, and I can't be bothered to cut it down (fear of losing data), and my home experience with Linux has been limited to Virtual Machines and the Ubuntu Live CD. Since Fedora 7 is a good-sized download, and my "host" who let me borrow their connection no longer likes the tremendous time I spend on her machine (hours, even with cable), I'm stuck emulating 5).

Last on that topic, even someone better than someone still stands something to learn (although it looks more like "learn to tolerate n00bism" than anything else).

True, proprietary software has paid-for support. However I was referring to the vast amount of freely-available support out there (usually for desktop users, not businesses). Usually this free support is good enough, although it isn't for businesses (probably what you were referring to). Unfortunately, like I said, free support for Linux & OSS tends to run into the "fan club", which I've never found fun.

If I had time, I'd go for the tutoring. Unfortunately my time is split as such:

Work at The Park (my own personal name for it, because it's next to a park) about 8 hours a day.
Deliver papers - 4 hours/day.
Soon - gas (petrol) station facilitator (cleaning the place) - 4 hours/day.
Sleep - 4 hours/day
Rest of time: house work or programming.

I'll probably drop the paper job (losing money, gas (petrol) prices too high). Will quit the Park (abuse is only "funny" for so long. If I had the resources, and a sufficient legal case (probably not), I'd sue them for overworking me (not too long ago, a 12-hour shift, 5 days a week was "normal", and I was listed as part-time! Fortunately summer break let in all the high school kids), and will probably get a McJob as soon as possible (when the high schoolers get out, they should be looking for people). Doesn't make life better, but should be better organized (better than the mad 4AM dash to the paper drop-off to start my rounds).

I wish I had a nice business to join. There are only two computer companies (that I know of) in town, and both seem elitist (the one repair shop wants a fist-full of certifications, the LAN-Gaming Arcade only hires in the family). I certainly don't have the capital to start a business (nor the time), so I'm stuck to waiting until I graduate to get me a nice, small programming job in the local metropolis (while returning to school for my bachelors. I figured it was "smarter" to break the two up (AS and BS), that way anyone needing a degree could see that I already have one, and am working for my BS in CS (lol), clearly showing "initiative").

That aside, you should really update that server. It was a nice wiki (although I'd argue that a wiki isn't really necessary for the format you present. A simple series of web pages would probably be more efficient (for the server though, not you), less overhead (I presume) than rendering a complete wiki), and that Reverse-Polish Notation thing was interesting (although not practical now, with download speeds much greater than uploads).

Lastly, back on the Linux discussion: what distro of Linux do you use? Also, could you recommend something a n00b such as myself could use (after my Linux class is over) to run (probably virtually, since my efforts to find a low-end system failed) to actually educate myself on Linux (before you say Slackware: something that I could use to ween myself off Windows, not to strand me in unfamiliar territory).

[Mikrondel]

Back on the distro topic...

Fedora Core was one of the first GUI distributions I tried. And the package manager put me off. Only a few weeks ago did I discover that that was a problem specific to distros using rpm, among them Fedora. In fact, a problem specific to rpm.

The distros I've tried more recently had me thinking "Well, they've made some progress with this package business". Not so. They just didn't use Rapidly Produces Migraines. Not that I'm particularly authoritative here; I just read an article and found that my limited experience in the matter was in agreement.

My advice for distros has not changed much. FREESCO. That's if you want to learn about UNIX and networking fast. If you just want an alternative desktop OS, well then I can say I'm completely happy with Debian and Ubuntu, though Debian is a bit less "it just works" but a bit easier to do more advanced stuff with.